Kelsey: [00:00:00] Well, Kieran, thank you so much for joining the next CMO podcast. We're excited to have you. I know you're over in the Dublin area and you are a Hubspotter, I'm a former Hubspotter myself. I'd love to learn a little bit more about you and what you do exactly at HubSpot.

Kieran: Ah, thanks very much. I'm excited to be on. So my name is Kieran. I'm an SVP of marketing at HubSpot. I'm really do a couple of things at HubSpot. So today the things that I'm trying to do is generate all of the global demand for HubSpot. So one of the things that HubSpot are. Unique. One of the unique things about HubSpot is most of the revenue that we generate comes from market and source demand.

It's why I love working at HubSpot because marketing are on the hook for revenue. It's a good space to be in. The other thing I'm working on is building out a media offering for HubSpot. So we led we did the acquisition of the hustle last year. Great media company. I know we might talk about that and this, and then trying to build a really great.

Community or around HubSpot, if you go to network that hospital.com, you can claim your user profile. [00:01:00] That's all of our academy of community and all of that good stuff, trying to help our community get better at HubSpot. So there are three of the things that I am doing at present. 

Peter: So, what do you do with your free time, Karen? I mean, that, that that's a lot, right? So I, I love how you started with, well, I got to just generate all the demand for hubs. Oh, well, and then there's some other stuff. So w let's dig into a couple of those things there because you, you just laid out a pretty interesting agenda that I think our audience is going to be really excited about.

Well, I am anyway. So, so first of all loves the fact that HubSpot is, and has always been from our experience with it, a real leader in marketing, as well as. Company that has making marketing platforms. Of course. And it's, it's fascinating. So. give me a rough idea of what percentage of the overall demand from for HubSpot comes from marketing generated sources. 

Kieran: So there's two real funnels and HubSpot there's the, a [00:02:00] amount of demand that comes from marketing source demand, and then to Mac comes from our partners and that makes up the totality of our revenue. Can I give you the exact split? But it's pretty much like there's a, they're pretty much equal. I can't give you the current split, but we have two general. You know, the HubSpot is at a certain size now. And so the amount of debt demand that we have to generate is quite large, especially for a B2B company. And so one of the things that I may be interesting for your listeners, as well as we get into, as like the problems that you have to solve are just so much more difficult, difficult, because the compound interest of growth means that the things you have to do have to drive so much more gains for it to be meaningful to your.

Right. And that's what actually has starts to happen in real scale. And business is the things that actually are meaningful your, to your business, the amount of things that are meaningful, your business actually start to decrease. Right. It's hard to just optimize and iterate your way to these like large, meaningful gains. 

Peter: Yeah, it's really fascinating. You see this, especially as companies get larger and [00:03:00] larger and obviously. Crossed the magical billion dollars of ARR, which is really rarefied air. Who's probably about a year ago maybe. And and as you get bigger, of course, making a move and that's why, you know, giant companies like apple or Microsoft or Boeing or.

For them to make, to, to drive growth. They often look at major new markets. You know, Microsoft just made two major, major investments, one in in gaming, obviously. And then the other one in, in healthcare by my Alma mater nuance. And so to, to get, you know, breakthrough growth inorganically, they have to go after big things, but organically it's even harder obviously.

And when you're in that phase where not many people get to a billion dollars of recurring revenue and to, to feed the monster is in make a difference, as you said, is, is incredibly hard which probably brings us to the next. Thing. We can dive deep into the demand gen side. But, but I think one of the things that that HubSpot has [00:04:00] done from the beginning uniquely is really embraced creative.

Approaches to generate an, a movement in leveraging that movement over time, obviously with the invention of inbound marketing that from the beginning was really the catalyst for the early growth. But I'm really fascinated by the acquisition you made of the hustle back in early in last year in 21.

Really started to become a media company. So help us understand a little bit more about what that what drove it in and where you see that going as a, as a piece of. 

Kieran: Yeah, that's been a fun journey within HubSpot and having the hustle crew join us. It's been awesome. Like, okay. We take a step back. One of the things we always try to do is ground ourselves on what are the. Consumer habits, how are consumer habits changing and how do we have to adapt to that? So most decisions we make are based upon how our consumers learn and buy software, right?

Like everything we do is kind of grounded within those things. What we've always tried to be good at is understanding the future trends and which one [00:05:00] of those we want to lead into. It's like always better to be a fast follower, right. Then being in the middle to late stage pack, because it's just much, much harder to, to build ground.

If you met, if you are in that pack. If you kind of look at the trends and think about what's happening, paid advertising has never been more expensive. Why is that? Well, if you see the amount of businesses created in 20 20, 20, 21 record number of businesses, most of those are going to be digital first.

How do small businesses start to get customers? And most of them will do some form of paid advertising, pay the Google tax, pay the Facebook tax record amount of VC funding in 2021. 30 to 49%. I think it's between 35 and 49% of all VC money goes into paid advertising on Facebook and Google, because what are your, a series a B company need to do?

They need to grow in the short term where the, how did they do that? Paid advertising. And so you're starting to see a cost of paid advertising, start to spike. And so it starts to you going to be harder and harder to grow through that channel. So a good solution to that and [00:06:00] start to own your own media.

Channels that you can do your own advertising across the other cool trend is in 2021. If you think about the evolution of the internet we started to go online. I started to search for things that we needed help form. If you actually go into Google trends, if you search for how to, you can actually see how to the search trend for that increased as the popularity of the internet increased because we want to do. Ownership of our own education. If you look at fast forward to 2021, really all digital content is becoming really part of our everyday life. So in the, in the previous instance, the thing I talked about as search and what brands were able to do was lean into search. Create content to become a trusted source of information when that person was searching for a problem.

Right. That's was really inbound marketing, right. And by marketing one-to-one I create content. And now I'm a trusted source of information when you want me to pause? Yep. You become, yeah. You become a trusted source of information. When someone is looking for that [00:07:00] information or that education today, really brands are need to lead into media to be.

Trusted source of information each every day of that person's life, right. Digital content consumption for extra. And COVID, that was across podcast. Video use letters, blogs. So when you lean into media, digital content is really part and parcel of how people consume things online each and every day and leaning into, into these kinds of channels helps brands to be an ever-present part of their consumers' lives.

The other trend that. Fascinated. And we're starting to see as like the decentralization of media from like large brands into creators. If you go to podcasts, if you go to YouTube, creators have much, much more power. They're becoming a source of truth for many, many audiences. And like brands who don't have any kind of media offering or any, any real way to work with creators are gonna get left behind in that race.

I think that's [00:08:00] three reasons I would tell your listeners. I would really be curious about how can we build a S whatever version of the media offer. And it is for our group, like the trend to pay, to advertise and trends that how do I become an ever present part of my audiences lives because digital consumption is continuing to increase.

And then how do I actually bring creators that are influenced in my market, into my media offering? And how do I do things with those those people. 

Peter: So, so do you see the becoming a media offering? Do you see that as a natural, smooth evolution from inbound marketing, or do you see this as a fundamental step change? 

Kieran: No, I think it's a, I think it's an evolution, right? We used to want to add. Our audience and that's really the inbound marketing that was really the emphasis behind in my market. And as I would create value through educational content, and I would pull these people into my ecosystem, teach them something.

And then a percentage of those people would want to use my products. What we want to do today is not just educate our [00:09:00] audience, but inspire. Like, how do we be an ever-present source of truth, whether that's across the use trends, the things that that person wants to consume each and every day with us on podcast, YouTube streaming use that or whatever that may be.

And so it really, it's an evolution. We think about it for us as how do we be the premier source of information or education and inspiration for our business builders. And so whether you're in a company and you're the CEO, whether you're in a company and you're working the support team, marketing team, sales team, whatever that may be, you are inherently. A business builder. And part of your role is to help build a success of that business. And so we want to make sure we provide you with the education and inspiration. You need to be successful, 

Peter: So one of the things that HubSpot has done very successfully is in the beginning when you drink your own champagne, right? So in the beginning, you not only identify this opportunity. For inbound marketing, but then you of course provided the set of tools and services and partner network that would enable your customers [00:10:00] to be fantastic inbound marketers.

So this next evolution of course, is now you're becoming a media company. Does this mean that in the future, HubSpot will be helping their own end customers become media. 

Kieran: I think there's so I think if you look to see where that media takes place, a lot of it is us trying to reach you where you are in terms of content. a YouTube and even use that are to a degree. We can help people start newsletters through our email and free. We have free email marketing within our free platform, but some of it happens in third party platforms, right?

We're not going to create a podcast platform. We're not going to try to create a streaming service to compete with YouTube. We can provide tools to help you to do those things. And and I think that's something we're all. I think in about us, like what, what are our customer needs? And what do they need to be successful in each and every, each of those platforms?

We always tried to lead the way in market and I think marketing and always ahead of our platform, because to your point, we want to kind of drink our, our, I dunno, like eat our own dog food. And so we want to make sure that we are successful [00:11:00] before we know the parts of that, that we can instrument within our platform to make our customers.

Kelsey: I think too, with everything that you mentioned with a podcast, creating this network, it's also that community that HubSpot has done such a great job building. I mean, you guys have a community with the educational side of it. You've a community of, you know, HubSpot members. Talk to us a little bit about how you're building that up and what you look to scale with the community that you've created out of, you know, your a hundred thousand customers that you currently.

Kieran: Yeah, look, I think if you think of, but if we think about the evolution of B2B, I know this is tangential, but I'll come all the way around to ask that question, because I think it's interesting, right? If you think about the evolution of B2B, where did we start with the B2B? Well, we started in B2B. We're trying to market to decision makers, like the people who bought our products that meant that B2B companies stayed quite niche because there's a smaller number of decision makers to buy your product.

And there are people who use your product. And then if you think about what kind of we, we moved from, we moved. Marketing to decision makers through, and then through inbound marketing, marketing to all of the [00:12:00] people who could use our product through educational content. Right. And so we actually.

Companies who were in the BDB space. You can now create far, far bigger audiences for, for their products and for their services. The next iteration of that kind of makes sense, which is product led growth. Because now I actually have a huge number of people who both are interested in buying my product and the people use my product, but it's still hard to get started with my product because I need the decision maker to buy it for me to get any use and touchy start to use the product.

The product led growth makes my product free, right. A version of my product for free. So now you can start. Whether you are the person who has the budget decision or not like, that's why we're starting to see bottoms up go to markets within SAS. I think the next evolution of that is community led like community led is a multiplier for product.

We move. We, we moved kind of from us telling you how good your PR our product is. You try and you are your team telling you how good your product is because your team within product led growth, actually land and expand, bring you into the product to the people outside of our ecosystem, telling you how good our product is.

And I think that what that's, what [00:13:00] community is about, there's really three core communities you can build. If you think of. Tech companies, you can build a community of product, a community of practice or a community of interests. So a community or product is traditionally what B2B companies build. I build a community around my product.

I teach them how to use the product. You can go in there, interact with other people, connect with other people it's mostly for support advocacy and product knowledge pro committee. That practice is where I think there is a lot of opportunity for B2B companies. In that you start to build, you kind of evolve your content, not just to give them this kind of content.

EBooks templates courses, but now you get them to a place where they can connect to each other and learn how to do a skill. That's the community of practice. And I think we're going to start to see more of that. These kinds of community led companies, where people come for the community and actually stay for the product versus today, they come for the product and stay because of the community.

I stole that line from our CMO kit bot, and I want to give him a shout out cause I've used it multiple places. And I think that's what we think a lot about how do we make our community more [00:14:00] valuable than our plot platform? How do we make that? The core thing, that one and a whole ecosystem around that community that makes you want to stay with HubSpot because you get so much more value.

Of learning our product, but also learning the skills to help you do better within your career. 

Peter: Karen, this is music to my ear. So, so obviously you know, our, our marketing team Kelsey and Scott, my CMO have have been advocating for a long time. And in fact, you're, you're experiencing part of our community. The next CMO. In fact, we have we have the next CMO community, which is a key part of how we build a community of people who who have a you know, shared set.

It's the community practice, Right. They, they want to be, you know, great operational marketing, functional leaders. And it's funny, we found the gap that we're going after is, is that lots of marketing executives grew up as great marketers, but they never learned how to lead a marketing. 

You don't get taught that in school, usually you get taught how to be a marketer and your experiences either a great brand leader or immigrate you know, digital [00:15:00] optimizer or I'm a great product marketer, but being a great leader of a function takes a little bit more.

And so we found that that really knits this community together in an interesting way. 

Kieran: Yeah. It's also like, it's also interesting, like one of the hard things about scaling of businesses. You S you, you hire those really talented people. And because they're so talented, they end up in leadership roles, right. You're just like, oh, that person, we need to build a team around that person so we can expand their scope of things that they can do.

And then you kind of start to lose your core people too. Like, they're trying to figure out how to be a leader, right. And now you lose a lot of. Work that they used to be able to do now there that being a great leader. And that means that you can teach your team and coach your team, how to do those things.

You hire people who are better than you. So theoretically actually in the longterm, you get to have a lot more scale through that. But to your point, like you're, you're trying to be really great at your job. And you're suddenly because of that in a leadership position, and it's a whole set of different problems and tasks and skill sets that you have to learn that is not as applicable [00:16:00] to the thing you used to do when you were an individually, individually. 

Peter: So here's the big thing. This is really fascinating to me anyway. I don't know if to anyone else, but it's fascinating to me. The, if, if you think about what you just said, Karen, the, the idea of sort of developing the, the lead. To the point where they, you know, they can grow in their career and, and, and get the skills and develop and become a great leader beyond just being a great individual person that used to be the domain of the.

So back when when I started working when you two were probably in grade school or maybe not even born yet I worked for a little company called IBM. And when you start at IBM, they put you in a year of training. And they spent back in, in that day, they, they said they spent a quarter million dollars developing a new employee.

And that was in 1980s dollars. There's a hint to how old I am. And you can imagine what that would be today. It's probably [00:17:00] closing in on a million dollars of investment per employee, but of course the world has changed and the change has accelerated in the pandemic world where everyone's working remotely.

The commitment to accompany has changed over time, so people can move. So who has the responsibility to develop those future leaders? And I think you're going to see a higher and higher demand for these communities of practice and interest so that people can develop their skills. And I think it's one of the things we found and I suspect that you all have seen some of the same thing where there's a increasing demand for developmental content.

And whether you get your content, your, your expertise development in the HubSpot community, in the next CMO community from planner on Tik TOK, or watching YouTube videos, there are now these, all these sources that are available. And, and I th I think that seems to be one of the permanently accelerated changes post. 

Kieran: Yeah, I [00:18:00] think it's just, I think it's a great point. It's kind of somewhat a continuation of what we've seen. It's like how the internet has changed in all things, in terms of the way that we can consume content and, and educate ourselves. Again, coming back to that evolution of the internet. And when I talked about one of the big things that when the popularity internet started to increase in grow, the needs of content started to become much more niche and fragments.

And it gives brands the opportunity to actually fill a niche, right. They couldn't compete with a university and have all of the courses and be able to do that, but they could create content for a very specific niche of people who were relevant to the product that they had and create much better content because they only need to create a subset of.

Entities needed to create, and they only need to be really, really good at like one thing versus someone who was trying to create courses for all the things. And I think it's much easier to disrupt someone when you're just trying to take a small subsection and do it really, really well. And then community is an evolution of this that we saw in by marketing and kind of disrupt [00:19:00] education and education become much more fragmented, decentralized from these kind of conglomerates.

And it's somewhat the same with communities we're starting to see in much more need for niche focus, community. And ran a very specific practice that that person wants to learn. And so you have brands who can not be the best community for these very small but in their, like for, in their worlds to large enough to, for them to be meaningful to that business, but like small categories of topics and small categories of practices.

And it's, it's like this net just helps you better find a tribe around the goal that you have. And I think that's what we're starting. We're continuing. 

Peter: So it's, it's really interesting that you brought that up because I w I was, I was thinking a couple of minutes ago that I was gonna ask you a question that I think you might've just answered, but let me see if you have the question I was going to ask you, is that how. Help the nun billion plus dollar annual revenue companies that have lots of resources and can go by by the hustle, which is a [00:20:00] fantastic media offering and hire producers from NPR or the BBC in create great content, et cetera.

And maybe part of it is in what you just mentioned. It it's sort of the long tail and hyper specialization where. Maybe you don't need world-class production values, but you, you, you need focus. You need a unique offer. Is, is that the way that we should think about it? So again, give we need for, for those people who are listening, who may not have the resources of a HubSpot, how should they think about building their own domain, their own media offering in their own. 

Kieran: Yeah, the thing, the thing I would tell your listeners is there's always room to be better or different, right? That's what we know about strategy. And when you take that better at different, one of the things I always tell founders, when I talked to them about like early stage founders, C series a is you kind of need to grow into your problems, right?

Don't take on problems that you don't have. What do I mean by [00:21:00] that? The thing that, I mean is it's easy to look at all of these other companies and say, wow, we need to do all of it. We need to do a blog. We need to do all these social things. We need to do podcasts. We need to do video. Like, I feel overwhelmed.

We, how do we do all these different things? You don't need to do that. Right? You need to pick the one thing that's meaningful to you. At any given point in time and do that thing to a world-class level and don't care about being average at everything else. So in terms of media, it's like, what is the thing that I need to be world-class at the topic that I need to Excel in.

That's the most important thing for my audience right here, and right now, and you can always disrupt large companies by being better at a very small subset of what they. And like, that's your wedge into starting to become better at multiple topics that they do, but trying to start with that one thing and how do you disrupt them on that?

One thing is much better than trying to peanut butter across all of the channels that they have. I think, I think that's the hardest thing for smaller companies is what is that one [00:22:00] thing? Like, how do I actually choose that one thing? And I think that comes with. A little bit of understanding your customer, right?

Bark, all marketing is terrible, unless you have deep understanding of your customer understanding what is the most meaningful. One of those that can scale to the scale that you need. Like you, you have to generate content to create a certain amount of engagements. You have to turn it. Content will generate a certain amount of leads for a certain amount of user sign-ups understanding which one of those will actually get you to where you need to be in three to six months.

So a little bit of forecast and a little bit of modeling and then trying to break. Where these companies are good in those areas and where you can be better. Right? So a little bit of knowledge, a little bit of tactics, or the bit of talking to other people in that space, maybe learn from them. And I think that's where I would get started in media.

I do see other like people and experts tell small companies do everything. I think that's terrible advice.

Kelsey: I love what you said about not spreading yourself too thin and having a company B average, [00:23:00] because. You know, once you find something that really works for you, just capitalize that and continue to drive that growth. And I have to say though, HubSpot, everything that they've been able to do from the ground up in the beginning, they have started to Excel at, and it's been pretty amazing to see their growth over the time.

And especially, I want to go back to this community because I think it really is a trend that we're going to continue to see throughout the future. But you guys have just recently launched the podcast network, the HubSpot podcast now. I'd love to learn a little bit more about kind of what you guys are doing there and what you guys see for success in the future.

Kieran: Yeah, I think going back to our trends, paid advertising is getting really expensive. Digital content consumption is continuing to increase. Creators are part of the media landscape. Okay. Well, when we bought the hustle and actually the most exciting things are coming live in the next two to three months.

Talk about them, but but even this was like, I really excited next steps. We bought the hustle and then we wanted to lean into one of those mediums, the, the podcast. And so we as part of the hostel deal the, my first [00:24:00] million is part of the HubSpot podcast network. Podcast, Shawn, shout out to Sean set the Sam.

And then we wanted to kind of lead into podcasts as a way to grow, reach, right? Because we wanted to own our own own brand advertising across our own own network. We didn't want to have to pay all of these kinds of crazy prices to third parties. And so we wanted to own our own media. We wanted to lead in creators.

So I think 13 of the podcasts in that network now, our creator podcast, people who have joined our network. And then of course, that digital content con consumption, we chose audio first, but we're also moving into new use that are building a YouTube and all of those other mediums. And so the podcast network has been really great for us.

It's been we bought the hustle in February. We launched the podcast network in may, and since then, I think it's grown to 13 to 14 shows. And I think that is going to more than double. I suspect that.

Peter: That's amazing. It's again, another great example of how you guys have been able to take some of these concepts and really at [00:25:00] scale them in, in an interesting and creative, in a creative way. What do you think if you, if you look forward in the next 12 months what are the sort of big trends in this area of you know, of, of building community in media?

W what do you, what do you think is is most exciting to you that if you look into the future, what you expect to see over the next year? 

Kieran: Yeah, that is a great question. I think, look, I think we're going to see more software companies wake up and realize that there's a huge opportunity for them to buy media companies. We saw it with STR serum rush and Backlinko, there was a lot of other deals that happened after our deal. Zapier did a great deal with maker pad.

I think. You know, you could argue that the the only difference between media companies today and media companies within software companies is how they monetize right. One, monetize it through ads, the other one monetize it through subscribers or their product. And actually a lot of tech companies can monetize a lot better.

They're more efficient businesses and just ad based businesses. And so I think there's an opportunity. There's a real opportunity there for businesses. I think [00:26:00] we'll see that a lot. The other trend, if you're paying attention on Twitter and finance, like a lot of us in tech or pain pay attention to finance right now because it's horrible, but.

has gone full pop culture, right? Like content is changing. Business is changing business used to be white papers and stuffy content like finance, who, who would have ever thought finance would be the most interesting space online. It now is like full of comedians. Great jokes. Great content. I think biz content business content goes pop culture.

Right? I think it goes pop culture. It goes mainstream again. If you go into a tech talk and look at the pop culture. The business content on there, it's like this really interesting blend of con business content, business advice, but like done in a very pop cultural way. I think those two trends are, and that again, speaks to creators and creators being a larger part of the landscape.

I think those treats trends are going to. Things that the best companies will be able to lead into and other companies will get left behind and they just won't understand that the same way they don't understand inbound market. And [00:27:00] in the same way, they don't understand other trends until it's too late.

And I think they're going to be meaningful trends that are going to accelerate some companies and some companies are going to be really struggled with them. 

Peter: So it's an interesting concept that you just brought up where there's now this sort of popularization and of, of this kind of content, but it brings up a really interesting potential problem, which is about. Credibility. And who's the really the right source of truth. And we've seen this a lot on, you know, on Tik TOK, finance people that you brought up as an example, there are a lot of examples of people who are funny and interesting, but give terrible advice.

As an example, it's really bad and And there's there's of course the whole media landscape from the traditional media is wildly you know, is, is wildly changing and, and messed up right now. So in this world with now all of these new entrants, putting a lot of money into, [00:28:00] into things who might have a financial motivation to say things a little bit differently, how do consumers of this content know what's right.

And what's the truth. 

Kieran: Yeah, look, I think there's a lot of people who create boring content give you terrible advice as well. I think there's just a lot of terrible advice, right? Whether it's given in a funny way or an unfunny way I think trust is never going to be more important on the internet than, than it will be in the next 10 years.

I think to build trust, you have to have an amazing brand to have an amazing brand. You need to deliver deliver on your promises. Right, right through from the point where someone finds you, they use your product to, they. B to log a ticket and talk to your sport team. Like, so how many companies have missed, like just that simplistic fact where they don't think of customer support as an integral part of their brand.

It blows my mind. How many companies think about how do I get people into my product, create a great experience in it? Who cares about this stuff after that? Right. But that doesn't really actually matter. Yeah. It does matter. That's that's how people see your company. That's the people that's a, you earn people's trust.

I think community is a trust flywheel. Like it builds a [00:29:00] trust flywheel for your brand. Like people in your community connect with other people. And that, and that form of trust actually rubs off on the brand. So I think community will be a big part of that, but I think you just have to build a brand that people trust.

I said it earlier in that the, the kind of inbound market and opportunity was brands could build a trusted stores, become a trusted source of information when people needed help, like who would have thought that you would go to a software company, earn a certificate and. Learn from their content and teach their competent and you know, trust our content many, many years ago to teach you things.

I think that's the way that we're going to see it happen in the future on media is that some brands are going to be trusted because they just create great content. Right? The quality of your work speaks to how trusted you actually be. But I think there's going to be a ton of noise. Like the internet is getting the thing that I see is people are getting better. are better at marketing. People are better at creating content than they've ever been. There's better tools to help you to create content and create things online than it's ever been. [00:30:00] And so it just becomes much, much harder to break through that, that noise. 

Peter: And it's, it's interesting because of course the challenge is there are incredibly smart people, incredible tools that allow you to create very high quality content that is indistinguishable from the official source of content. And, and I think there's actually a really interesting application of NFTs beyond your cartoon.

Monkeys is really around sort of. Determining which content is actually the Right. source validated real content that's out there in, in should be identified as a key source of truth. 

Kieran: Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think we had three, four. I think web three in general has huge implications for B2B. I think when you can completely change the incentives of why consumers want to interact with you and want to be part of your community. It's going to be fascinating. Like you can imagine in the future, like what, I spend a million dollars in Google and Facebook or what, I actually airdrop a million dollars back into my community to incentivize them, [00:31:00] to give me feedback on my product, to incentivize them to onboard other people onto the community.

Into my product. Like imagine I could incentivize you to, you're a power user and I could, and incentivize you with tokens to get other people in up and running and doing the things that you're doing. So I think incentives changed behaviors. I web three allows you to create net new incentives for your community.

And I'm personally extremely excited by web three and spent an unhealthy amount of time in that space. 

Peter: W well, excellent. Well, we, we could spend a lot more time on that in other things, but unfortunately this happened really fast. We're already toward the end of our time here, and we're going to come up to our last question in a, in a second. And before Kelsey asks that just help our listeners understand Karen how should how should they find more information about HubSpot, about you, about anything important that you're, you're thinking about the. 

Kieran: go to him. If you want to check out HubSpot hubspot.com, if you want to check out what we're doing on the media side of things, we've [00:32:00] started to get our website together for the entire media experience. It is not there yet. It will be a couple of months, but if you go to blog.hubspot.com, you can actually start to navigate around all of our media.

Cause we just changed our NAF recently. But you will see an a couple of months a whole new look and feel for that. And that is something that I'm truly excited.

Peter: Great. And we'll package that up in our show notes so that people can find the links there too, as well. And, and with that Kelsey, I think you have the last question. 

Kelsey: Karen, this has been great super educational conversation. But what advice would you give to those that are CMOs or aspiring to be one someday?

Kieran: You know, I've talked to a lot of people at market leaders recently and. can give you a piece of advice that may or may not be as common that, that people talk when they, when they ask you the question, one of the things you have to realize when you get into a position like a CMO, whatever, it may be like a leader of marketing within the company, or even just very high up running a large, very team. Every single role you go into is going to be stressful, [00:33:00] right? Every single role you're going to go into, there's going to be a lot asked of you. There's gonna be a lot of pressure. Everyone has seen the you know, that the stat that gets quoted that every, this typical CMO job is 18 months. There's just a lot of. That does not change. Like you actually cannot change that situation. That is part and parcel of the job. All you can change is how you react to that situation and you have to choose like what parts of that are going to stress you out and what parts are not going to stress you out. I think it can really start to cause you deep anxiety, a lot of imposter syndrome make you think that you cannot do that role.

And I think that what you want to do is, you know, have confidence in the skills that got you. You know, you have those skills you deserve to be there. The situation will not change, but what you want to work on is how you react to that situation and how you. Like you can change your reaction to that situation.

And that's what I tell a lot of marketing leaders and aspiring market leaders. Like you're in that situation, there's a lot of pressure. The founder is asking for something the other execs are asking for something. It seems like, Hey, you're put under a microscope. People are not trusting your work. No, you have the skills.

That's why you're in that job. [00:34:00] This is just part and parcel of the job. It's a stressful job. You just need to make sure that you change the way that you react to that. What can I control? The only thing I can control are the inputs that I can control everything outside. Everything other than it is. I sat in my beam of ability to control.

And as long as you are doing the most, the best job at those inputs, and you feel really great about the work you are doing against the inputs you can control, you should feel great about the job that you are doing. And I wanted to give a little pep talk because I've talked with a lot of people who are new leaders.

It's stressful. It's not, it's like a very stressful job. It's not a nine to five job. And I'm rooting for you and I'm sure you were doing an incredible.

Kelsey: I love that. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Kirin, we really enjoyed the conversation. Make sure to follow the next CMO and plan out on Twitter and LinkedIn. And if you have any ideas for topics or guests, you can email us@thenextcmoatplanet.com. Have a great day, everyone. Thank you.

Peter: Karen, thank 

Kieran: Thanks everyone.