The term "campaign" is one of most overused words in a marketer's vocabulary, and unfortunately, it is often misused. In this episode of The Next CMO podcast, we speak to Scott Todaro, the CMO of Plannuh. Scott not only has deep experience as a marketing executive, but he also taught a popular class in marketing planning at The University of Massachusetts. Scott recently wrote a blog on this topic and we discuss that blog, some of his favorite tools, among other topics related to planning marketing campaigns.
More about Scott: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-todaro-744a3/
Scott's blog about marketing campaigns: https://blog.plannuh.com/blog/what-is-a-marketing-campaign
Scott's template for building the perfect marketing campaign: https://blog.plannuh.com/blog/the-ultimate-template-for-building-marketing-campaigns
More about Plannuh: www.plannuh.com
Kelsey Krapf 0:14
Welcome to the official pod cast of the next cmo hosted by a Plannuh, the next cmo is a thought leadership podcast for those that are CMOS or want to become one. My name is Kelsey Krapf and I am the senior marketing manager.
Peter Mahoney 0:30
And I'm Peter Mahoney. I'm the founder and CEO of Plannuh.
Kelsey Krapf 0:34
For this week, we have Scott Todaro, the CMO of Plannuh, as our guest, Scott just recently published a blog series on what exactly defines a campaign. We thought we would dive more into this to really know why there's so much confusion about what a campaign really is. How are you doing today, Scott?
Scott Todaro 0:52
Doing great, Kelsey. Thanks for having me here today.
Kelsey Krapf 0:55
Thanks for coming. Um, let's talk about what a campaign is. There's so much confusion and controversy around what this topic is all about. So before
Peter Mahoney 1:04
you do that, before you do that, Scott, you have all these Bona Fie days that we should talk about. So let's let's spend a minute in and talk about your background because I know that you're I know you're not the braggy kind of guy, but you've done a lot. So tell us a little bit about your background. Scott, besides being in the most plump cmo job in in tech today is the CMO of planner. What were you doing before then?
Scott Todaro 1:34
Well, I do. I have to admit, this is the crown jewel of my career. But the I've been doing marketing now for 20 years. I have two degrees in it. And I used to teach at the University of Massachusetts. I've been in leadership positions in marketing seven times. And the reason why I'm excited to talk about this topic is because campaigns have been one of most overused words in the industry and all the different different teams that I've worked with over the years, all have different definitions as to what a campaign is. And so I was glad when you guys asked me to come aboard to talk about this today. So hopefully we can clear this up by the time we finish.
Peter Mahoney 2:12
Yeah. And Scott, I know that we talk about this a lot at planner, because we, we struggle all the time, because people have very different kind of views of what is inside of a campaign. And when you're trying to build a software platform that has the concept of what we think of as a real campaign. It's a little bit tricky, because you've got to educate users within the product experience, but also more broadly about what a campaign really is. Because as you said, it's been kind of worked the meaning of the campaign over time. So why don't you start by laying the foundation and telling us what is the real definition of a campaign?
Scott Todaro 2:51
Yeah, I need in the cause for that. I think, you know, I hate to blame technology vendors. But you know, the A lot of times these software products that have been built over the last 20 years, they've had to name activities that are done inside their software, something. And so they know that the word campaign is commonly used in marketing. And so they start to slap that term on just about any activity you do in a product. So you send out an email, and that's a campaign. It's not a campaign. In fact, the word itself actually dates back to the 1600s. It's actually a French term, and it's was for the military. And basically, the word campaign in French means field. And so the whole concept was to take the field that was goal based. And then, you know, it really became popular in political campaigns, because what is a political campaign, it's basically one giant marketing campaign. If you think about it, you have a goal. Say you want to be president united states, that's your goal. You need to have a target audience, the American people you've got, you've got a whole bunch of messages and a theme associated with your campaign and then you use a whole bunch of campaigns and beat generals and vehicles to push the information out. So maybe it's bumper stickers or advertising or speaking to the press. And then you have a measurement at the end of it, did you get the votes or not? And so, you know, when you think about it that way, you realize that campaigns are actually much larger than just sending out an email or doing an event, that they're actually pretty comprehensive. And they should all be all the activities you do as part of a campaign should be focused on achieve achieving a very specific set of goals.
Peter Mahoney 4:37
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. Scott in in, of course, we see people going all over the place with with the term. And I and some of it I, I'm convinced is because, of course, software vendors want to feel like they're doing something strategic and a campaign feels like it's strategic because it is as you just described it. It's the top level thing I'm trying to achieve whatever objective And go live. I'm trying to go after it probably feels a little bit funny to say well we're in the tactic business right because tactics are you know have some probably an undeserved negative reputation but in a lot of cases tactic may be the better term is that is a tactic activity. What do you think the right term is your
Scott Todaro 5:22
you know, it's interesting strategy and tactics once again, that comes from war. Right? You know, it's interesting because in war, being a great tactician is actually a very admirable trait to have for a leader. But you know, it's for some reason in business being tactical is kind of the word is really been attributed to just busy work, or just trying to do manual activities. And so you have to have both, but the campaign is really to try to set that top line strategy and if you look at the name Have campaigns or the way that they should be defined. They're really aligning to your strategy. Right? So, you know, it's pretty critical that you, when you start building out your plan, and you set the goals that you want to accomplish for the year, and you figure out what is what are the different strategies you're going to use to achieve those goals, then you start to align those campaigns to those specific strategies. And then you can build out all of the other channels you're going to use to send it out channels are not campaigns email is not a campaign. SEO is not a campaign. It is a channel for reaching an audience and should be part of a campaign. It's a very important part of the campaign. But it is not the campaign itself.
Peter Mahoney 6:44
Yeah, it's interesting. We've talked a lot about this in in even how we define things inside our platform in in Can you call a campaign type and event as an example. And, and so to talk a little bit more about how you How you would differentiate a channel versus a campaign? Because I think it's a really important concept.
Scott Todaro 7:06
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, a channel, there are lots of different channels, right? You're going to trade shows, you can have, you know, advertisement that you do, you can do all kinds of things, sem, you know, you can, anything that you're doing to reach an audience is a channel is basically an empty vehicle for reaching a very specific audience. And when you think about a campaign, it's trying to accomplish something, and it let you what you're doing is you're taking a very specific target audience with a very specific message that you want to get across. And then you're leveraging that channel or vehicle to reach the audience to get them to do what you need them to do to accomplish the goal. And so that's why it's very different. So the channels are, are something that should be included as part of the channel. Pain in you need to look at, in most cases, a very diverse channel strategy using one channel to accomplish a campaign could work. But it's best if you're actually using multiple vehicles to reach those audiences. And the more vehicles you have to, to push that message out, the more likely you are to achieve those goals. And a lot of times in marketing, it's a numbers game. So you have to figure out, you know, first you have to figure out what the target market wants. And then you have to make sure that those messages are going to align to those wants and needs that they have. And if you do that, as part of the campaign, you'll be more successful than not.
Kelsey Krapf 8:38
I think one of the biggest things that you mentioned is making sure that campaigns are tied to goals. I can't tell you how many times in marketing where it's, we're sending email campaigns, and there's no overall goal besides Hey, let's get some people to you know, download an ebook. But at the end of the day, if they're not going to those top line goals, then really what's the purpose of that campaign? which ties it back to a this is just some busy work.
Scott Todaro 9:03
Yeah, you know, and you see this all the time you'll, you'll be in a meeting with a bunch of marketers, and you know, somebody will say, What What should we do? And somebody will say, well, let's do a dinner series. Mm hmm. Okay, what are you doing the dinner? What are we trying to accomplish? Who we doing the dinner series with? Right? I mean, are the partners involved? We, you know, who's the target audience that we want to get there? What when we get them to the dinner? What do we want to say to them to get inspire them to do what we want them to do in order to achieve that goal? You can't start with the vehicle. And too often, because the reason there's a real there's a reason behind it, right, is that a lot of marketing teams are structured by function. Right? So if I'm the events person, I don't have control over a lot of other areas. I have control of my events. And this is why when you're setting up a structure to run campaigns effectively, there has to be a campaign owner. And you know, it's interesting because they're doing different sized companies out there that have different sized marketing departments. And you know, if you have a very small marketing department, you know, the critical component of community of campaigns and successive campaigns is communication. So the smaller the team, you're probably all sitting around each other, you can communicate very quickly, you can run campaigns effectively, but as you get bigger, and this is starting to cross different functions, because campaigns should be doing that. Remember, you're, you're leveraging multiple vehicles for this, now you start to need a campaign manager, you know, sometimes you'll see that title used in an organization, or maybe it will be somebody that just has, you know, really the insight to pull all of these different functions together and rally around a very specific campaign that the, the organization of the company needs to achieve. And so when you're setting up, you're setting up your groups. You know, ideally, we would actually build our marketing team on campaigns, right, because that would be best. But unfortunately, today too many people are specialized in doing very specific things. This person is fantastic at events, this person's fantastic digital marketing. And because that's their area of expertise, what ends up happening is they can't be generalized enough to run all of the different elements of the campaign. So you know, maybe someday we'll start to see marketing generalist be more of a title or maybe as we continue to make this shift towards digital, you'll start to see more and more people out there owning campaigns, because all of those actions will be digital in nature. But as of today, it still requires somebody to organize and pull these campaigns together. Especially a lot of some of these campaigns can run for full year, you know, sometimes a quarter, sometimes a snapshot in time, maybe for product launch, but all of these elements you need to be wrangled together has to be an owner, that owner has to make sure that they're keeping a timeline, and that they're scheduling the activities to build on each other to help make sure that they're achieving the goal. So, Scott, you're,
Peter Mahoney 12:09
you're a very regimented guy, right. So I'd love I'd love you to sort of step us back and, and break down to what are the key elements? How do I tell if something's a campaign? So one, you need an owner, right? There's one piece of it, but tell us all the pieces so we can start to understand in a little bit more detail, what are the necessary elements to put together a proper campaign?
Scott Todaro 12:34
Right. So first thing I would do is I'd start with my marketing plan, and I look at the goals that I set out to achieve at the beginning of the year, right? I would pick one. So let's, let's say, we're going to do a growth goal. We want to generate 400 opportunities because that's what we're going to need more to hit our revenue targets. So you have that goal. Then the next thing you need to do is okay, well, who's going to be the primary audience that we need to drive In order to achieve that goal, and so, you know, each company may have a different set of audiences and may be fairly broad or maybe very specific, maybe going after an industry. You know, you may suffer that revenue goal, maybe you're just looking to upsell your existing customers, but you need to know who they are, you need to know what their situation is, you need to know what their needs are. And then once you know those needs, and you have that target audience, and that's not just the industry, but also who is the buyer, what are their roles, what are their job titles, then the next thing you do is you craft a set of messages that are going to inspire them to do what you need them to do, but it has to relate back to what their needs are. Once you've identified those, those messages, you may want to come up with a theme. There are a lot of thematic campaigns that people run. You know, obviously, I mentioned the political campaigns. That's a great example of a ematic campaign. But the great thing about a theme is that you can use it over and over again, it tends to be fairly memorable. And hopefully it gets the key message that you want to get across in a simplistic way. Once you've identified those themes and those key messages now you got to figure out how you're going to get the message out. And so you've got to look at the vehicles. Once again, we always go back to that target audience. Where is that target audience, if they're going to trade shows, then you may want to use trade shows, if they tend to be online, because you're dealing with a lot of people that don't travel, then you know, you're going to set up a digital strategy associated with it. But you need to figure out what are those channels for getting it out and you need to craft. Take those messages that you identify those key messages and then you've got to work that into content that is going to inspire and make it easy to digest the message you need to get across in order to meet their needs and get them to to move now, one of the key things that I think we forget about it The campaign or because we're always so busy, we just move on to the next thing is measurement. And so you have a goal that you've set. That goal may be qualitative in nature. But you've got to get the quanta into this tube. So, you know, every single goal has to be measured in some capacity. And so setting up the right tools to measure the success of the campaign will help you in the future make better decisions on your campaigns. But those are the essential ones. I mean, there are all kinds of other things that could factor into a campaign. You know, is there a PR elements you know, you talking to industry analysts are their partners are going to be involved in the campaign? There are different constituencies, how our sales going to be involved in the campaign, if you have a BDR team? How are they going to follow up and nurture the reactions that you get from the target audience? You know, how do we move that through the funnel? And so I think, you know, if your campaign plan can be very very comprehensive, you know, with lots of information in there really to drive the team and everybody's going to have their role. You've got to have a timeline associated with it, you got to understand when you're going to start putting some of this content together, you know, if it's going to roll out for a year, what are those key milestones and touch points that you want to put into that rollout? All this comes into play. And this is why people need to spend time developing the campaigns and so there are campaign templates out there that people use, but a lot of them might think just kind of start with an idea and write some things down. And so it's that's not optimal.
Peter Mahoney 16:42
No, that's great. Scott, in a couple of observations. There is one you you talked about channel is I think, Step six or seven. There in the process, which highlights what you were bringing up before the fact that people think about the channel first, right? Do an event, I'm going to do a digital thing, where the reality is you should be starting with, you know, your goal, your audience, your needs, etc. and going through that process. So that's a fundamentally broken thing, I think and it could be related to, to why people may not be getting the performance that they'd expect. The other thing that I just put in a plug for is that you put together a really great campaign template. And I think we have that available somewhere, don't we, Kelsey? on our website, great. It's so we'll put a little link thing in the in the show description there. So you can get the campaign template because I think that's a great tool that emphasizes some of the things that you were you were going to talk about, but I think you were you were trying to get a question in there, Kelsey. So go ahead, sorry.
Kelsey Krapf 17:47
Yeah, so what would be you know, an example of one of those campaigns where, you know, you have the top level objectives and goals to hit the metrics like can you give me a an example have, you know, maybe one that a CMO would direct for lead generation? Essentially?
Scott Todaro 18:08
Well, I mean, look, at the end of the day, the CMO should be actively involved in all campaigns. You know, they may not be the originator of them. But they should understand what these campaigns are. Because you could have a scenario where somebody is writing, they have a super large team, they're going to run 100 campaigns, but more than likely, that's not going to be the case, you're really going to limit it to a very specific set of goals, you probably don't have 100 goals that you're trying to accomplish over the course of the year. That would be I would say that you probably is spreading your resources too thin. But that being said, you know, campaigns come in all shapes and sizes, right. So you can have awareness campaigns. So you may want to do some, you know, some thought leadership campaigns. You may want to do some, you know, a brand launch you may be repositioning the company that can be a campaign that you're looking to do. You competitive campaigns, you want to do some grip outs, you want to gain market share. Those are the types of campaigns you should be doing. If you notice a lot of these are kind of goal related, right? When you start thinking about how you're going to approach it, viral campaigns, there's probably multiple channels you're going to do as a result of trying to get those viral messages out there. But you're trying to create some sort of action associated with a goal to a specific target audience, regardless of how you approach this. And if you see, you know, even like a competitive campaign, you know, what do you usually when you hear like a competitive campaign, you're thinking strategy, right? My strategy is, I'm going to get market share. And you see how the campaigns are marrying to that strategy, and accepting those top line goals. So it's a very strategic activity to build out those campaigns. The execution is a lot of tactics, as those ciated with it. But if you don't get that strategy nailed up front, that's when you run into trouble.
Peter Mahoney 20:05
So one of the examples I often bring up, Scott is so that there are some campaigns that I think we've we've all we've all experienced as consumers. And we should talk about those in a minute. But I'll tell you one thing that illustrates this approach really well. When I was at my last role as a CMO, it nuance we were trying to, we had a goal to to reach the clinical audience and convince them that there was a better way to do documentation with voice. That's the kind of stuff that we built back then. And in this actually, our communications team came up with this concept. So it was cool. It came from a different place in the organization certainly didn't come from me. And they came up with this concept. The the theme in the end was the art of medicine. And it was basically The campaign was designed to advance the goal of of communicating to the clinical side of our audience versus the IT people that there was a, you know, a better way to do documentation in a way that would return those the doctors back to return time to them so they could actually get back to what we call the art of medicine. In the thing that was really cool about this is that, you know, we started from the goal, we we went through the audience, we went through the objectives and the messages related to that. And what came out of that was not only a broad set of tactics, but an ever evolving set of tactics that you could tie to back to that original theme. So it was really powerful in a bunch of different ways. One is it really helped you really helped you continue to push on that message toward that goal of re educating that particular part of the audience. And you you by expressing it in lots of different ways it really amplified, right. So you, you really had the ability to hear it over and over and over again. And it made measurement really interesting because instead of trying to measure one little tactic, so we do things like a little webinar, or we do a customer event, or we do some email or some content, the measurement in aggregate became really interesting, because you could start to look at have we communicated this message? Is the audience now sort of parroting back that message? Are we moving the strategic ball forward? So that was a really great example. And, but there may be you probably even have some good examples just from consumer things that we may have all seen, you know, give us an example of what other kind of notable campaigns we might have experienced out there.
Scott Todaro 22:53
Well, you know, I think your example is fantastic. I mean, but there are there are ton of campaigns I mean, for people that are old enough have, you know, I think they remember the campaign from 1984 that Apple ran, you know, it was, it was comprehensive, because it was changing the way that people thought that's the whole concept was to, you know, think differently. And they really push that, that whole notion on it, and it filtered into everything that they were doing. And so, you know, it wasn't just there was a theme that was associated with it, there was, you know, a whole set of whole audience that were trying to grasp those people that were more innovative and trying to make that that next step. You know, we've seen, you know, lots of campaigns you've seen, you know, automotive campaigns, you take the Hummer, when that first came out, you know, they were, you know, talking about large, the whole concept, the whole theme around it was, you know, hey, we've got a car that's, it's the biggest out there, right and they just use that That unique component of what their product was, and really push it out to try and generate a lot of interest. But, you know, on the consumer side, you know, we've all we've run into him every day, every ad that you see, hopefully has some sort of goal associated with it. And it's not a set of empty calorie channel based activities. Because if that's the case, then you probably seen pretty poor results on the other end, because it has to you, we heard the old saying, right, you need seven touches in order to get somebody to do something, right. And it's probably not going to come from the same vehicle over and over and over again, it's, you know, I'm seeing you multiple places that groundswell around it starts to get me to believe that there's something that I need to pay attention to. And that comes from a campaign that comes from somebody really making sure that you know, they're thinking through this holistically to the audience. They want to get to. And so everything that you see when you walk through an airport and you see billboards, they're not in isolation, more than likely, you know, they're they're part of a larger thematic campaign, I'm sure if you look at the URL at the bottom of the ad there and you will go to it, you'll find that there's more content, trying to drive you through the process for whatever it is that they have on their website. And then when you register, you'll find out that after there'll be a follow up email, you know, trying to get you to do something else, try to keep that momentum going, but the message is always the same, right? And you're trying to drive somebody through to the conclusion to achieve that original goal you set up.
Peter Mahoney 25:42
So here's a question for you, Scott. They it if you think about these kinds of campaigns in the fact that as you highlighted before, most organizations aren't really set up to do this today. It actually creates it A pretty interesting opportunity for sort of the up and coming marketing professional who who really wants to make a mark, you know, I highlighted the fact that in in my last job there was there was a specific department is actually a specific person who came up with that. And she went on to have a really great career. So tell me about what do you think someone who may be a clicker to back from the CMO? What can they do to sort of affect change like this? And in get a company to think more broadly about about campaigns?
Scott Todaro 26:38
I think the first thing that anybody that wants to get involved in campaigns, they really need to understand the goals. And I, you know, I keep coming back to this. It's a common theme associated with it. But how often do we see marketers, you know, we have that wonderful meeting at the beginning of the year, we kick off and this is what we're trying to accomplish. How often do we go back and really look at the goals that we set at the beginning of the year, and make sure that everything we're doing is helping to achieve that. And do people fully understand the goal. So you know, sometimes the CMO get up there and say, This is what we're trying to accomplish. And they use, you know, million dollar words associated with it. So they look really smart. And the people on their team just, they just don't get it, right, or they don't understand how they fit into it. And so anybody that wants to come up and learn how to do campaigns properly wants to take a leadership position in that understand the goals and what needs to be achieved, understand the target audience. So you know, people that are on the product marketing side, or brand managers or things along that those lines, they usually will have that data and that information about that target audience and the messages that are associated with it. But you know, the campaigns may have nuances associated with what you're looking to accomplish on it. And so you have to look at each one of them from an individual standpoint, refer back to the goal. So you want to become a campaign manager, I go to the CMO, and I'd say, Hey, you know, it doesn't feel like these campaigns are working, we got different, you know, functions inside the organization. It feels like we're, we're not in sync timelines, people aren't driving this, we're not unifying around these campaigns. And no one's really holding anybody accountable on the back end to see whether we achieve these goals. I can do that for you. And really, you only need one person to manage it, right? You can build these things, you can pull all the people together, the product marketing people can give you those that target audience and those key messages, you work with the different functions, they'll give you the different channels and what they can do. And then as collectively as a unit, you build that timeline, and you figure out how you're going to manage it. You bring in the ops person to make sure that you're setting up the right elements to measure the success of it. And then your job as the campaign manager, run the timeline, run the meetings, make sure things are getting done, and You know, if there are vendors that need to be brought into the mix, because you need to supplement, you know, that's your responsibility to get them into the mix. And you know, and as you start to see the achievement towards these goals, you'll start to get marketing in general, right? And that's a pathway to become a CMO, right is to really understand what you're trying to accomplish. Because if you never fully understand that, then, you know, marketing is a very strategic job. It's very strategic. And the problem is that it's become more tactical, especially in the b2b marketing world, primarily because it's a service unit for sales. But at the end of the day, you know, if you're not thinking strategically marketing, you're basically doomed to find yourself doing a lot of tactics.
Peter Mahoney 29:47
I thought we just talked about the fact that tech shouldn't be bad. I think that it's funny. I think we need to we need to rebrand something here because I agree, tactics do have sort of a bad rap. And but we should think about the other side of that is operational excellence. That's, that's the other thing, the yin and the yang, you need strategy and you need operational excellence. So that isn't just doing a bunch of discordant tactics. It's about the coordination of those tactics toward achieving a plan. I think that's the important thing. And one other thing I was going to mention, Scott, is that first of all, I love that you bring us back to the goals because I know you and I are very like mind around that, that, that if we don't start there and maintain a focus on that we're never gonna achieve them. The other thing that I found is really useful for someone that someone can do that's just really tangible, is break themselves out of their silo. So for instance, if you're a if you're a field marketing person who's running events, there's nothing to stop you from calling your colleague over in the communications or PR group or Over in digital and saying, Hey, this is what I'm working on, how can we coordinate our efforts in a way that might move the ball forward a little bit more efficiently with these goals in mind, right? That that kind of thing. And I found the people who are real standouts in in my organizations over the years are people who found a way to do that in, in a way that is interesting. They found a way to do that to move the ball forward in a way that was really generous. So they brought people forward. They weren't out just looking to be, you know, ambitious at all costs and shoving people to the side, but they really were the people who brought the different pieces of the organization together to help advance things a little bit further.
Scott Todaro 31:46
No, business is a team sport. Right? And so you know, there's very little that you can accomplish being a solo act, and that goes for campaigns becomes even larger, right? Because there's so many People that are involved in the campaigns and this campaigns can cross departments. I mean, it can go into, you know, the product arm, if you do a product launch, you may have to work product management engineering, you know, the sales team, obviously, right? Because that's a handoff there, right? So you have to have buy in from the sales team, because one of the worst things you can do is build a campaign, the sales team isn't going to back up. So they need to be they need to be brought into the fold as soon as possible. help them understand help them get excited, so that they help drive your campaign to it campaign. So our organizational base and the last company worked at record a future we call the campaign's place. And these plays were so enormous that would run for quarter that it actually filtered into other departments that had to contribute to these campaigns. And so it'd be, you know, you'd have, you know, we have subject matter experts that were in our services group, that would have to provide content associated with the, you know, the sales team would have to align their their strategy to line up behind it the BDR teams, you know, we would we would pull in even, you know, features and stuff along those lines to help reinforce anything that we needed to push out or make a claim in the marketplace. So it was organizational wide effort. And you know, it's marketing, let it in. There was a lot of work on the marketing side, but everybody had their, their stake in making sure that it was successful.
Kelsey Krapf 33:37
Absolutely. I guess the last question I have for you is, you know, you talked about hiring a dedicated campaign manager. When is the appropriate time to bring someone like this on board? Maybe if you're, you know, a smaller company or a larger company, what does that look like?
Scott Todaro 33:54
Well, here's the here's the answer. You will know and i'll tell you why. Because then your campaign We'll be breaking down. So I, every time that I've gone through this when you're small team, you know, I've worked for a lot of startups, when you're small team, you know, people sitting there right across from each other, you're communicating. And even the CMO can kind of manage this stuff, you're not running a ton of campaigns, you don't have a lot of goals you need to achieve, but I've always found that around 15 people, this starts to get a little on wieldy. And so once you hit 20, usually, if you don't have somebody managing the campaigns is competent. They're, they're going so fast. And so, you know, I've always kind of looked at it, you know, you try to find somebody strong your organization, and you try to give it to them. You know, sometimes they'll they'll take an embrace and do a great job, sometimes they won't. And if they don't, then you have to go and hire resource to manage that across your different functions. Or you can make a bold move and restructure your entire team. So that everybody He's responsible for a campaign. That would be bold. That That wouldn't be bold.
Peter Mahoney 35:05
Exactly. Well, I think we're just about out of time, Scott. But I did want to remind people that we're going to put the link to the campaign template, in the description of the podcast, as well as there's a companion blog piece that Scott wrote recently about campaigns and what they really mean and things like that. So definitely take a read. And with that, I think, Kelsey, it's time to take us out.
Kelsey Krapf 35:30
Yep. Thanks so much for your time today, Scott, we really appreciate you know, discussing what campaigns is, I definitely think the major point of understanding campaigns need to be tied to goals is the fundamentals of this conversation. So if you haven't checked out the blog series, again, you can do it on our website www.plannuh.com. Make sure to follow TheNextCMO and Plannuh on Twitter and LinkedIn if you have any ideas for topics or guests, you can email them firstname.lastname@example.org. Have a great day, everyone.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai